Norms Restoration - 31 Seater Projects & Leyland TD 5 Project

1939 Leyland TD5 [1635 DD]

2019

Body August

Norman Julian 4th Aug
Did a bit more work today.
The replacement offside rear pillar which is recycled from the rear window frame.
New gussets on all corners of the rear frame.
65mm flat bar going from the rear platform going to the central rear pillar for extra strength.
The new skirt rail going round to the new offside pillar.
Nothing is finished off as yet, basically tacked in position so as to be checked for accuracy.

Norman Julian
I did this horizontal strengthening piece attached to the metal floor surround a little different to original.
They just welded 65mm x 4mm flat to the surface of the pillar which then had a raised area which the aluminium skin just had to negotiate.
I changed that and cut a notch out of the 2 pillars so the 2 surfaces sit flat with each other.
Catherine Norman
Looking really good Norm ��

Norman Julian
I put these 2 photos side by side so you can see the skirt rail was bent to high heaven.




Steve Hartnell keep the photo's coming brilliant.
Steve Hartnell
keep the photo's coming brilliant.
Charles Shipway
Keep up the good Norm By the way I have a request ?
Norm have you thought of fixing a photo of a finished decker on the wall above the bench ?
The reason is keep looking at it and assure your bus that it will look even better than the photo on the wall by the time I’ve finished you !!!!!
Stuart Brown
Very Nice Norman Julian
Do you think perhaps that the long low rear overhang perhaps hits the ground if going from a flat to up hill road? - Was in Sydney after all...
Norman Julian
Stuart Brown probably but not all that common.
Norman Julian 7th Jul
I made these floor support brackets for the floor joints.
Even though the steel joists can cover the span, I added a bit more insurance.
The floor being on an angle and the joists being near equally spaced, making the brackets to suit looks a little peculiar.
What was left of the original floor surround was rust treated and now ready for painting before the flooring goes down.

Norman Julian
Here is the floor joist sitting on the support bracket.


Norman Julian 7th Jul
After the flooring goes in this will be the next bit I will do.
These are the bottom sections of the rear bulk head wall.
I mentioned recently that these sections are not load bearing and really only carry the bottom skirt and the body skin. After a look at both you can see a gusset on either side of each other that sandwiches a wall pillar.
A photo shows that.




Norman Julian
A view from underneath the bus looking up.
The rear bulk head wall
Carle Gregory
oooo yuk
Norman Julian 10th Aug
Before I go any further I painted most of what has been replaced.
The damp weather here at the moment may promote rust on the unprotected and freshly welded areas.
I gave the floor frame 2 coats of primer before I give it 2 coats of black.
The galvanised floor joists will go on and then the timber flooring.
Bitumen paint gets put on the flooring to act as waterproofing and while wet you put Malthoid on top of that.
Should be adequate protection for years to come, especially for something that will be housed as long as I have it.
I'm thinking of adding a few more gussets that were not on this frame.



Gregor Neil Robertson
Top class job.
I see two rails at the bottom, converging.
Is it to create a slope on the floor for water to run off? And yes, more gussets would further strengthen the structure.
Norman Julian
Yes Gregor Neil Robertson!
You have that sloping platform that protrudes past the end wall.
It has to look flat from the back of the bus.
It also has to be weight bearing as already discussed.
The flat piece that is about 65mm wide x 900mm long forms part of the skirt at the bottom of the back wall and it also converges with the platform and appear straight from one side to the other.
Sounds complex but it isn't really.
I tested the strength of the protruding floor with the added outrigger and is very strong indeed.
Gregor Neil Robertson
Norman Julian congratulations.
Your years of skill and experience are really working out.
One in ten thousand capable of this
Charles Shipway
I’m glad all is going well Norman Cheers!!!!
Steve Hartnell
looks great.
Marcus Allaway
no one sees the red under coat when done if bot paint with enamel as under coat can soak up moisture
Norman Julian
I'm not sure what you are trying to say but the frame is undercoated and then the aluminium skin goes on.
The steel floor frame has 2 coats of undercoat and then there will be black top coat going over the top.
This is not auto paint so it doesn't soak up moisture the same way as auto paint.
The replacement frame is galvanised anyway so just a little insurance, nothing more.
Marcus Allaway
Norman Julian under coat is pourus so I would spray any cheap enamel on the frame before puttung sheets on makes it last longer and a fast shot of fish oil in side tubes, as rivets leak,, drip drip over time
Marcus Allaway
i did a few train tram the odd bus in my time we even used a sealer like a glue on the panels before rivets there are some rivets that seal good , as we dont want to see ya good work go to waste as its like art
Norman Julian
Thanks for the advice Marcus.
Marcus Allaway
Norman Julian we used this as cheap at bunnings good for panels and windows easy clean and can be painted too, with aviation rivets that dont leak
Norman Julian
What they did at Chullora was to fill the hole of rivets with putty.
Marcus Allaway
Norman Julian ha lol com eng and others just put them together trains bus trams just a contract not sealed well and when rivets ran out they used cheaper ones with steel center s well dont they run a muck in time, as to as I said before the ww2 alloy duellem was softer with more cooper in it as ex left over ww2 air craft stuff used up and all bodies.
The new alloy sheet are harder to work but better,, the 600 to 900 class was there worst due to ballast dust mixed with rain over time,, that mastic I even have used on some old holdens for the guard sealing and windows too cleans up with kero after sitting a day or two best
Marcus Allaway Norman Julian ,
I know what ya going though I use to own a ex wangi AEC, bus and live in it and did some repairs to it to, and was tops and cossy to live too i must say
Marcus Allaway
you can see on this 900 class we was doing the new panels against the old Norman Julian
Norman Julian 26 Aug
I had a few hours this afternoon and made this section of pillar below the rear bulkhead wall.
Just for now it is just sitting in position but I did weld the skirt rail in position and welded up the kerf cuts. Tomorrow I will get several gussets made.




Dennis Boros
Top notch work!
Better than factory fresh!
Norman Julian
Dennis Boros thanks buddy.
Stuart Brown
Are you notching, bending and welding to make the curves Norm?
Norman Julian
Stuart Brown yes
Norman Julian 22 Augu
One of the easiest jobs I can do on this bus is to replace the rear bumper (if you can call it that) pathetic really. Should be grateful for anything because there is nothing on the front at all.
This tube is 38mm or 1 1/2" in 1939 terms.
I would like to know why there are no bumpers on any deckers at any time through history.



Cameron McFadyen
The reason is they are like brakes, good drivers don't need them and bad drivers don't deserve them.
David Wilson
English buses of the time didn't necessarily have bumpers.
Maybe a weight saving thing.
That is why the framework is perforated - to save a bit of weight
Norman Julian
Actually I would have thought the perforations in the frame was for the sealed rivets because they need the pneumatic hammer to put them on which requires access to the back of the rivet to crush the back part of the rivet to hold the pannelling on. Same as the roofing rivets.
Norman Julian
For those That don't understand what we are talking about.
here is a shot
Charles Shipway
Nothing left to say is there Cameron Mc Fadyen you are spot on
Norman Julian 24 Aug
Today I finished off screwing down the floor joists ready for the actual flooring.
With the paint a little too fresh to work with I thought I would tackle the rear wall curved angle piece.
The front capping as I suspect with the majority of the walls yet to come had to come off and a new piece applied.
When overhauls were done it was common practice to place a new capping piece over existing so as the new pop rivets had something to hang on to.
You can see in the first photo that the holes are over sized and the capping is buckled.
Also the internal upper and lower strips were too mangled to be of any use, so I cut them off only leaving the brackets so as to put a new internal capping like the external.
Because I will be using ordinary pop rivets and not solid rivets, 2 separate strips are not necessary.







Gregor Neil Robertson
Good to see this progressing.
Huge task.
I assume the bottom skirts all along the sides require examination and possibly similar repairs?
Norman Julian
Yeah Gregor!
Hasn't been looked at since at least 1960.
Gregor Neil Robertson
Norman Julian here’s hoping it hasn’t deteriorated so badly.
I’m not so ambitious, this is my new baby.
I’m giving up on the Riley RMF - coachbuilt cars require too much time and I’m 77. Slowing down ....
Norman Julian
I remember when I was a youngster, the neighbour had one of these in brilliant black.
It was a beauty.
Gregor Neil Robertson
Norman Julian the last decent British car.
A treat to work on.
The mini was great to drive but no joy to maintain.
And then all the Good British carmakers disappeared.
Catherine Norman
The rust was quite extensive good thing you decided to take the rear panels off Norm.��
Norman Julian
Yep.
The only way to check is to take all the panels off and inspect and take the relevant action.
I was 4 years old when this bus retired from service.
Norm Julian 24th Aug
Norman Julian
I could have left the existing capping there but I cut it out so as to get access to inside and apply rust converter and then metal primer.
Norman Julian
This shot shows with the folded piece that this is a replacement strip that was put over the existing.
Norman Julian 26th Aug
Today I looked at this section and decided to cut out the section of corroded pillar around half way through the end of the bearer still leaving half to carry the weight of the top deck.
I say that but am not convinced that is so but erring on the side of caution, I wasn't taking any chances.
The bearer itself on this end looks OK. I placed a new section in position to show how it will go.
2 new gussets will be made to finish this area off.
I also cut a section of bottom skirting rail and placed it in position.


Norman Julian
This is something I have noticed with both this bus and the AEC restoration.
Very few rusted areas have been actually cut out.
Patches have been welded in. In this photo you can clearly see the patch, and in another shot you can see the original rusty gusset.
Gregor Neil Robertson
Given that the bus companies figured the life of their vehicles wasn’t worth extending, the must have sanctioned bodge jobs... keep the profits coming in, we aren’t in the preservation business!




Adam L Francis
Mate you’re doing an amazing job
Keep up the good work it’s most satisfying once you complete it.
Gregor Neil Robertson
Serious stuff now.
I see you’re keeping the structure as original as possible.
Norman Julian
Not like the AEC.
This will be just like a major overhaul.
Repairs mainly.
Norman Julian 27th Aug
I have the replacement gussets and 2 more pillars being made for doing repairs on this project.
I also went to a steel merchant and got what you can see.
The 40mm tube is for the rear bumper and the rods are for something else.
There is $80 odd dollars there.
Steel can be expensive.
Anyone that is doing a project like this knows and appreciates how costly it can be over the life of the restoration.
I hope I'm not putting any potential restorers off by saying this.
A fair bit can be saved if you have a steel recycler.
The thing is you don't really notice because you are spending a little at a time.
$30 here, $80 there, it's only at the end you realise how much you spent when you tally up the dockets.
Back now to the job at hand.
This tubing is 3mm thick and more structurally sound than the original.
Getting something more solid wasn't what I was after, in reality it was all that I could get.

Clynton Brown
It’s much the same with a timber project, hardwood is dam expensive.
Recycle yards are cheaper though
Norman Julian 27th Aug
Rear bumper done!
This is slightly thicker and longer than the original and also thicker material.
I have temporarily placed it in position.
A hole has to go into each bracket.
A 1/4" tap has to be placed into the skirt rail and bolted on because that is what holds the bumper onto the bus.







Norman Julian 28th Aug
I had 2 wall pillars made and 3 right and 3 left gussets made.
Unless some of the wall pillars are completely rusted out or like the rear wall which was mangled, I wont be replacing the whole pillar.
I will just cut these 2 up to the sizes I need.
One of these pictures you can see the replacement piece with the gussets in place.
I think I will weld the gussets on and then put the piece back on and weld it in position.
I also got the gussets made a little larger on the flat side so as to cut the angle to the angle of the sloping pillar.





Gregor Neil Robertson
The long tube with a flange or web - is it stainless steel?
Are they made for general fabrication in building and air conditioning structures etc?
They must be very strong.
Norman Julian
Gregor Neil Robertson they are galvanised flat sheeting folded to this shape and then capping that is spot welded on.
Gregor Neil Robertson
Thanks.
Good and tough for the job.
I could use some of that today... any cut-offs left over?
I need just a meter!
Norman Julian
I use everything.
Nothing is wasted.
Gregor Neil Robertson
Very ecological/organic ..
I will go and have a hunt in my own leftovers bin.
Stuff there been waiting since the 60’s!
Calum Melrose
Don't want to be welding Galvanized, at least grind off the zinc coating so you don't poison yourself
Norman Julian
It takes a lot of prolonged welding to have any lasting effects.
The amount I do I'm not bothered.
I'm more bothered by the masks and using them.
They fog up my glasses and I can't see.
More than likely fall over and break something.
Norman Julian 28th Aug
One of the many things I really find facinating about doing these repairs is the way things were done and wondering of why and how.
This bottom section for example, it was just sheer luck that I found after cutting the front face off this pillar halfway through the bearer and exposing the inside that the bottom part of the pillar was separated from the upper part, hense this answered the question why would a gusset be used.
Naturally to strengthen the lower part of the bus from the floor down.
Without further exploring I don't know if it continues all the way round or not.
The same can be said for the upper and lower decks.
The frame isn't joined directly from the top to the bottom by a continuous joining of the pillar.
The upper deck section is broken at floor level and joined to the floor by way of gussets.
Very clever actually.
Consider a bus at speed going under a low bridge.
The gussets would sheer off and save the bottom deck.
The frames of the Leyland and AEC 31 seaters are built somewhat different.
The frame of this prewar is smaller and lighter in weight which is interesting.

Craig Braun
The Indiana Jones of ancient public transport!
It’s interesting stuff!
Norman Julian 29th Aug
One side done.
The other side is going to be more work.
The bearer is compromised.
I will cut sections out of it to see how bad it is. If I can repair it I will.
Replacing large sections is something I want to avoid because of the load bearing factors








Norman Julian
This bearer is made using seriously thick steel.
Must be an essential part of the structure.
Rick Gotley
You will nut it out Norm , im sure ��
Norman Julian
You had better hurry up and get 2528 and try and catch up old mate!
Gregor Neil Robertson
That structure is seriously rotted out.
Oh boy you’ve got some work ahead.
Norman Julian
I'm way beyond being phased by rust after doing my first car restoration.
Cars are more complex because of vaious shapes.
Norman Julian
I just did a check of the records regarding overhauls on this bus and the last time it was done was 1953.
3 years before I was born.
Gregor Neil Robertson
Oh dear, much work to do there.
Pretty essential though.
Wish I could help.
Clynton Brown
You might need to get an Astro prop
Norman Julian
If you mean an "acrow prop" then yes that is one option.
The other thing I was thinking was to weld a brace from the roof to the floor to carry the weight.
Norman Julian 30th Aug
Ouch!!!!!!




Norman Julian
Undershot with an ugly head
Maxwell Mcroberts
Dr Norm will fix it, cut and tuck
Like · Reply · 4d
Norman Julian
That is wood inside!


John Clarke
Oh dear!
Norman Julian 30 Aug
I didn't get too far in to this job today but I did learn that the 2 inner walls are the main load bearing.
I found that the outer pillar with so much structural rust where it joins the bearer that if it was structural it would have sagged or even collapsed.
Having a close look at the inner wall, it is made up of several layers of thick plating.
The bearer itself has timber compressed in the middle of it.

Norman Julian
A new mudguard will have to be made



Norman Julian
This view is the bulkhead wall towards the bottom with the mudguard near the top.
This area normally has a seat covering it.
David Wilson
the timber insert certainly retained moisture - an English idea for extra strength.
Why it couldn't have simply been a proper I beam I don't know .
Probably saved 2/6d with this arrangement
Norman Julian
David Wilson I'm surprised that this bearer was included with the chassis when it came to Australia or is it that when the bus was built they used this method when building the body.
Norman Julian
This bearer isn't bad enough in my opinion to replace.
It would be a bloody nightmare trying to in the first place.
I will patch it up as good as I can and add gussets to it for added strength.
I will put gussets on the outside pillar as well.
Gregor Neil Robertson
Sometimes you must get the idea that they almost made it up as they went along! Do you ever come across factory drawings used by the fabricators?
Norman Julian 31 Aug
The rust was too bad so Norm the hacker struck again!






Paul Andreatta
When you think of the age, constantly being exposed to the elements and the hard life the bus would have had, its no too bad.
Norman Julian
Paul Andreatta not at all.
I said in a post last week that the last time she was overhauled was in 1953.
Even then this may have been overlooked.
Paul Andreatta
Yes Norman Julian they would have only done the basics to keep her on the road.
Its thanks to dedicated people like you that some have survived.
Norman Julian
There are a few of us. Lots at the Sydney Bus Museum and the Transport Museum.
Last updated
August 2019
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