31 Seater Projects & Leyland TD 5 - Norms Buses - Monthly activity

Norman Julian 1st Jul
: This will be enough stripping for now till I catch up.
: I needed to take enough panels off so as to work on the back platform.
: The floor will be coming out next, so the staircase is in the way.
: Believe it or not this is the part I like the best about this type of restoration.

Norman Julian
: With the later model buses you don't need to take the mudguard flares off but this prewar you do if you want the panel to come off.
: Greg Scott
: The mudguard flares are another item i will have to fabricate from scratch ! ☹
: Catherine Norman
: And very tricky too not one will ever fit another bus as they were custom made for each bus in situ

Norman Julian 2nd Jul
: You know when I was a kid I used to hop on and off these things and never thought much of it, but now especially now when I'm working on this bus I don't find it easy.
: I'm probably still recovering but I don't think it will get much easier.
: It must have been hard for the elderly when these were in service.
: They are quite high.

John Clarke
: It wasn't only getting on.
: On the 225 to Adamstown, and many onthers I'm sure, it was a point of honour to time one's alighting well before the bus had come to a halt, and to ring the conductor's bell on the back platform, (if the conductor wasn't there!) and off they'd go.
: Norman Julian
: Yeah I witnessed a few times when the bus was coming to a stop the person would alight before the bus had stopped and the conductor would ring the bell again and the bus would keep going.
: John Clarke
: Norman Julian I did it to help both the driver and conductor, being the considerate person that I am.
: Brian Blunt
: As a schoolkid, I liked to ride at the rear of downstairs.
: Quite a few times when the bus was crowded and the connie was upstairs at a stop, he would look in the mirror, see the platform was clear and give the driver the go-ahead.
: If I noticed there were people still trying to get off, I would wait till the bus started to move and give the 3-bell emergency stop.
: Rusty Williams
: when I was a conductor a old conductor taugh me bang your foot on the floor when your upstairs to tell the driver to go if your busy collecting fares!
: Norman Julian
: Rusty Williams ah.
: I have witnesse

Norman Julian
: Never use ply
: Gregor Neil Robertson
: Norman Julian not even marine ply?
: Norman Julian
: Gregor Neil Robertson the only difference between standard plys and marine grade is the glues they use.
: Once moisture penetrates it, the ply starts to deteriorate.
: Using a cut timber is much better.
: No matter what's used it has to be sealed quite well with several applications.
: This back platform is very vulnerable to consistent moisture.
: Lots of times I'd bet the end cut isn't treated.

Norman Julian
: All the feet brackets on all points were rusted away.
: Hence the angle brackets holding it all together.
: Gregor Neil Robertson
: Norman Julian a full load of passengers waiting on the platform for the bus to halt - not a good plan!

Norman Julian 7 Jul

I got half the staircase out.

Not an easy prospect.

I can now see what's going on and not sure what was going on with the floor.

Some of the flooring wasn't sitting on anything.

I expected more corrosion from an eighty year old.

The staircase is in poor condition.

I'm glad I decided to check it out.

Gregor Neil Robertson
: Oh boy - even the original spec looks underengineered - almost fragile
: Norman Julian
: Yeah!
: Gregor Neil Robertson
: So it will be a challenge to fabricate a stronger platform - would you extend steel tube from the rear of the actual chassis to support it?
: Bolted or welded?
: This job is going to be fun!
: (As I assume you don’t have a pit to enable underside work? - maybe building a pit is your next project.
: I used to have one, long ago, ramps are better of course, I’m thinking of buying a small-scale scissors type portable lift.)
: Norman Julian
: Gregor Neil Robertson don't need a pit to do this job.
: I will sit down and stair for a while with a cup of coffee.
: Remember though that this design has lasted 80 years without too much trouble so I don't think it is too bad of a design.
: Gregor Neil Robertson
: Norman Julian I remember the rear platforms being loaded with as many big fat heavy men that could squeeze on... worst case scenario.

Norman Julian 9th Jul

I was scratching my head as to how I was going to rebuild this back section and have a point of reference to use so as to get the right alignment of the back end of the frame of the structure.

It is a mangled mess and nothing aligns.

It than came to me I can use the 2 forks of the chassis as the point of reference.

They arn't damaged and I can get the back end alignment by using them.

If you don't know what I'm talking about it's the back end part of the bus that you can see that goes through to the front of the bus that carries everything above it, including the engine, gearbox, etc.

Norman Julian 9th Jul
: Got the ball rolling and had these vertical pillars made.
: All three and one lower window horizontal will be replaced.
: I also will replace the 50 x 50 angle at the hop on entrance.
: I spent 3 hrs going from engineering shop to assorted welding places to see if I could get that 90 degree curve in the 50mm angle, but unfortunately no one could. They could do an outside curve but not an inside.
: Looks like I will do a series of cuts and curve it that way.
: The bottom skirt rail which goes all the way round the structure will also need replacing from the entrance all the way round to the wheel arch on the off side.
: I also noticed using my eye that the first nearside pillar looking at it from top to bottom doesn't line up with the third offside pillar.
: Not sure whether this was a design flaw or whether she had a wack at some stage.
: As always I will keep you posted.

Norman Julian
: This angled steel beam is too corroded to be of any use in this area anymore.
: It is part of the main structure of the floor and carries the weight of the floor and passengers getting on and off the bus so it has to be in good condition.
: You can see that a great deal of it is a floating floor.
: At the moment in a few areas it is about 2/3rds of the original thickness.
: Andrew Blacklock
: Norman Julian make a good template for making the new one

Robert Stevenson
: Another way might be to cut the curved horizontal part of the angle from a piece of sheet the same thickness.
: Cut the appropriate section out of the angle then curve the remainder around the curve and weld it up again
: Norman Julian
: Yeah!
: Never thought of that.
: Thanks Robert!

Norman Julian
: In this picture you can see 3 brackets.
: 2 verticle and one up the top to the right.
: There are suppose to be 2 threads in each bracket coming out to hold hand rail brackets made of chrome.
: The threads have been cut off.
: This handrail bracket would have been "L" shaped.

Norman Julian
: Looking at this frame.
: I think I will put more floor supports in to strengthen the frame and help the tongue and groove flooring.
: It shouldn't have to span too far.
: They originally used timber to build up the floor supports to hold the flooring.
: I think I will now use steel.
: Gregor Neil Robertson
: Norman Julian I absolutely agree.
: Peace of mind with an overcrowded bus!

Gregor Neil Robertson
: Rather surprising it’s survived without damage from an overloaded platform
: Charles Shipway
: Good on you Norm keep going on learning new things about the restoration and passing on the information
: In time there will be many who will benefit from your experiences and be thankful you took the time to send us your experiences over time
: It is fact many of us look forward to your post

Gregor Neil Robertson
: Gosh , you don’t waste time!
: Congratulations
: Robert Stevenson
: Lovin ya work Norm.
: Stuart Gale
: Hey Norm..
: I was going back through your posts when you were debating with taking this section out and were worried about it being weight bearing...
: maybe the designers made this rear wall as a sacrificial structure so in the event of a rear end collision it would stave in but the upper and lower decks would keep their integrity ..
: interested to hear other opinions on this thought...
: Norman Julian
: The inside cross wall where you step up to sit down is a bulk head wall.
: I think it and the one behind where the driver sits actually holds all the weight.
: I'm learning stuff all the time.
: Stuart Gale
: Norman Julian so are we thanks to your efforts !!
: If you watch the youtube clip on the london transport workshops at hammelstead (or what ever its called) they lift the bodies off at those points with the cranes..
: behind the drivers cab and rear platform area...

Norman Julian 22nd Jul
: Where I'm up to as of lunch today.
: The 2 vertical pillars in position.
: Several cuts in each one to get the right curve.
: It's a little tricky to get the pillar plumb when the whole bus is curved.
: I am using the internal cross bulk head wall to solve that problem.
: If I use that wall and assume it is square, then the back external wall should be the same.
: If I square off that pillar the rest of the frame will fall into place.
: You can see why the bottom floor frame that I made the other day has 3 sections that are angled back.

Gregor Neil Robertson
: Very ingenious.
: Your cunning planning paying off.
: The long gone men who originally fabricated the buses would be impressed.
: There won’t be many experts left in the world who can do this.
: Although current bus body building is probably not too different, when it gets to shop-floor level.
: Using different lighter stronger materials, and possibly robots on assembly lines.
: And of course, computers in design.

Norman Julian 23rd Jul
: Another day of slow agonising work.
: The rest of the wall took no time at all but trying to work out this platform and lining things up was slowing things up.
: I did manage to get the sloping platform piece worked out and into position.
: I have a few ideas on how to reinforce the floating section of floor.

Chris Dempsey
: Take NOTE sometimes you need to walk around the
: The job till all of a sudden searching for an answer it all fits into place
: Norm I recon you would be good at LEGO without a plan
: Gregor Neil Robertson
: Strikes me 60% of the strength is in the floor outriggers and the rest from the unitary structure incl the staircase / so it’s suspended as well as supported below the floor off a rear chassis member?
: Norman Julian
: Gregor Neil Robertson To be honest buddy.
: This floor and what was under it has been altered so I'm not sure what the original setup was.

Charles Shipway
: Nothing like spreading the work load Norm
: Andrew Blacklock
: We did something similar to that years ago and it worked ok
: Phil Belak
: They use them on old kombi’s.
: Not sure of the size comparison but it may be a suitable replacement as they make repros.

Norman Julian 24 Jul
: These will be replacing the old timber joists that were used.
: They are 25mm x 75mm steel type.
: Being 25mm thick allows the 20mm timber to sit on top and be nearly the same height as the steel angle.
: They are very strong.
: 1.2mm thick.
: Then the malthoid going on the top will be just the right height.
: The aluminium tread goes on the edge to finish it off.
: The steel replacing the timber will be lighter and last a whole lot longer.
: Here in this picture is how it will roughly look.
: Cypress tongue and groove going from side to side,
: The same was used in the AEC.
: No ply will be used here.

Norman Julian 26th July
: A short day today but I did make this.
: The outrigger to hold the section of floating floor.
: I had to adjust it twice so that from standing position you couldn't easily see it.
: Actually the only way to see it is if you got on your kneesl
: It was leftover piece from a pergola I built a few years ago.
: 100 x 50 x 2.00mm.
: It was holding the steel floor in position even before I weld it.

Norman Julian
: I thought about where the best place for this outrigger to go and I decided about 2rds the way down.
: Because the back end needed the support more than being central.
: I didn't want it all the way down the back because it would be noticed more from the rear of the bus from a distance.
: Carle Gregory
: looking a these picture lately Norm you certainly have a few Multigrips
: Norman Julian
: About 30 assorted types Carl
: David Wilson
: don't weld the multis on to the frame like me
: Norman Julian
: You are not suppose to do that David Wilson LOL

Gregor Neil Robertson
: Again - very neat.
: A most useful piece of metalwork to start with.
: Was it made for glasshouse structures originally or what?
: I see it’s silver - is it stainless or galvanised?
: If so how do you weld it to mild steel?
: Norman Julian
: Gregor Neil Robertson It's galvanised Gregor.
: No problem welding gal. to mild steel.
: Norman Julian
: Gregor Neil Robertson you can by this by the metre or length at a steel merchant.
: Andrew Blacklock
: We did similar to that in 2730 Edward Parker
: Edward Parker
: Andrew Blacklock yes i noticed back platform on it had been rebuilt
: Andrew Blacklock
: Edward Parker probably ver 30 years ago now

Norman Julian 27th Jul
: The middle window pillar is in.
: The floor external rail is in position and the floor joists are cut and in position.
: No more uneven and unpredictable timber joists.
: The rear bottom skirt rail is yet to go on and the stregthening floor rail to assist holding the floor.

Laurence Glenn Bowmaker
: it is great seeing so much positive a wonderful progress being made.
: Always inspiring to see what you achieve.
: Gregor Neil Robertson
: Laurence Glenn Bowmaker
: totally agree.
: The man is a miracle worker.
: Don’t tell him I said so - he’ll get big ideas of himself!
: Norman Julian
: Thanks for the compliments boys!
: I'm really enjoying this.
: She will be 80 years young next month.
: She entered service just before WW2 was declared.
: Gregor Neil Robertson
: Norman Julian I entered service just after (1942) and service had been a hard slog ... still
: Spannering away!
: I went to school in these!

Norman Julian 28th Jul
: Today I cut the bottoms of the 3 pillars at the rear to the right measurement so as to put the bottom skirt on. Unfortunately the 2 side pillars as can be seen need attention as well so I can place the skirt on properly.
: I'm thinking that I will be repairing all the pillars right the way round.

Norms Restoration - 31 Seater Projects & Leyland TD 5 Project

1939 Leyland TD5 [1635 DD]

2019

Body July